SM

Submitted by john_williams on Nov, 01/11/2021 - 16:39

Born 06.04.1940

SM went to Peel Park Primary school where she loved art and English. When she was 11 she went to Hyndburn Secondary. After a few weeks there, her teachers took her to one side and asked if she would like to try for the 11 plus but her mother refused permission as she did could not afford the expense of buying another uniform.

SM followed her love of art and began her working life as a design tracer with the Calico Printers Association printworks in Barrow. Her detailed descriptions of the printing process are fascinating. After five years, she married and left to have her first child. It was difficult to combine work and motherhood, as she had no family to help with childcare. After a couple of years doing piece work at home for Mastabar Mining, SM returned to college as a mature student to do commercial studies. This enabled her to embark on an office career with Associated Dairies, where she remained for 22 years and then with Disablement Services in Preston.

SM’s recollections include many aspects of daily life that we take for granted today: having to wait for a telephone number to be allocated to your household and what to do in an emergency without one, the enforcement of a silence rule at work, how household budget and child maintenance payments worked in the days of cash wages. She also gives an insight into the impact of Covid and lockdown on the older generation. In retirement SM has returned to her love of the visual arts and volunteers with a local charity shop where she enjoys dressing the windows.

The Interview

Audio file
Due to Covid restrictions, this interview was recorded over the phone.

The Transcript

This transcript has been edited for ease of reading. Click on the audio icon to listen to the whole interview, which was recorded over the phone due to Covid restrictions.

Our interviewee did not wish to give her full name.

EARLY LIFE

I was born on the onset of the war. It had started in 1939 and I was born in 1940. In my family I had a sister who was 12 years older than myself. She started work at 14, but unfortunately, she went as a florist training, and after 2 years, she had to come out to go into ammunitions. And when she'd been there only a few weeks, she injured her hand, so she was at home with me for quite a while until her fingers healed. I lived in a sweet shop and my mother ran the sweet shop and my father was an electrician, who didn't work in the shop, but he would do odd jobs for people. My sister, because of what she'd had done to her hand, went back to training for a while and then what she did, she opened part of the shop up as a florist, because mother couldn't make a living out of the shop as it was during the war, because it was so strictly rationed, were sweets.

EDUCATION

I went to school at five years old, and I went to Peel Park School, it was just across the road. The things I liked best were art, and English, and not much keen on games or anything like that and then from there, when I left there, I went to Hyndburn Park school when I was 11 years old. And I stayed there until I left school until I was 15. In those days you could leave school at 3 times in any one year. They allowed you to leave at Easter, July and Christmas. And I left in Easter, because my birthday being in the April. And I got a job at the Calico printers Association at Barrow in between Clitheroe and Morley. And I went there as a design tracer.

My parents didn't put me in for the 11-plus because they didn't seem to think it was worth it for a girl. But when I'd been at Hyndburn School for a month, they called me out and asked me to stay behind one night, there was four of us and they asked us did we want to sit again. Of course I hadn't sat the first time but my mother wouldn't let me go because she'd bought the uniform for me to go to Hyndburn Park, she said she wasn't going to go to the expense of buying another uniform to go. But one of them out of the four of us did go and she did pass, and she went on to go to the High School in Accrington.

FIRST JOB

At Bella Printworks, it was a studio there and we did design tracing. A design tracer was doing tracing with a paintbrush rather than a pencil and it was done with a special paint called photopaque and it was done on a massive film. The massive film could range from an A4 paper or it could be as big as a table and it was strong over a big right up table and you'd to see if there were any discrepancies in the pattern and if there was you'd to make them right, you'd to scrape them out with a knife and you'd to make them right or else you'd to take any little dots out where the light was shining through. So that when it went through on the roller it printed exactly as it would from beginning to end. It linked up perfectly and that's what I did for 5 years.

The films that we did went over the road to the printing works further up the road. It was still on the same complex and that went on then to print material. A lot of it went to Africa and it was the printing of the material, the beginning of the design. That film was wrapped around a huge roller and as it went round it printed, it dipped itself in dye and then it printed the material as it came off the roller.

My starting wage was 3 pounds 17 shillings and at the time it was considered not bad pay but having to go to Barrow in between to Morley, of course I had to travel there but a lot of us did, they came from all the outlying farms and they came from Clitheroe itself, and Morley, and I used to get a ticket for 5 (shillings) and 9 pence and it allowed me to go onto the bus every day without having to buy a ticket every day. So I had that out (of my wages) and I had the tax and insurance out and I had to give Dad £1 out of that for my board. At this time dad and I were living by ourselves because years before my mother had died. She died when I was 13 and so what we had to do, we had to rather muck through on our own, but we did, we made a do. For the first year dad got a cleaner in and then after that we managed to do it ourselves and on the side of the house we had a massive garden and he grew the flowers and the fruit and the vegetables that our Sheila sold in her florist shop.

WORKING LIFE, MARRIAGE AND MOTHERHOOD

I got married and I was having a child but you couldn't go back then and they didn't keep your job open and of course then I needed somewhere where I could get to nursery but I didn't go to work for 12-months. And then I went working at Eureka Brushworks and it was just off Queens Road the back of Queens Road. (possibly Accrington Brushworks in Eureka. Mill) and I was there for a year but that was a very poor pay, but I took it because the nursery was across the road on Thorneyholme Road… and there I got about £4 17s but £1 17s of that was for the nursery and then I'd tax and insurance out.

I worked from 7:30 till 5 and I came home with less than 3 pounds. The job at Barrow was 9 till 5 so that was a much harder job and a lot longer hours and I stayed there until I had my second child and then I had to give up which was another 2 years on because I couldn't afford to pay 2 of them in the nursery. So I didn't work for 10-years then.

I used to put money aside every week for whatever we needed to have and I used to buy saving stamps from the Post Office and put it away so that the rates, which is what the poll tax is, the rates and the water was paid for and the electric I used to keep money in jars so that I had enough money. I had to be very strict with it, but I managed to be able to do it but there was nothing left over.

After 7 years we moved from the house we were in in and we moved to a much bigger house in Burnley Road in Accrington. And it was absolutely near enough derelict so what we did, we moved (in) and we stayed in one room while the house was being renovated. As Brian went to work, he came home with the wages and we carried on doing each room until eventually we got it shipshape.

And then when the children were that bit older, I'd be about 28 then, 29, something like that, at Mastabar Mining equipment I had a friend and she worked for them at the bottom of Avenue Parade and she said did I fancy doing work at home and it was making the belt fasteners for pits , the mining pits and so I did. I took that job for 2 years.

You started off having to …do 20 dozen and you got two pounds 17 shillings which would be about £2.50 now and then after that every 10 dozen that you did more your wage went up. And I managed to do more every week and I was making £4 a week but you were doing a lot of hours for that. You were doing probably 30 hours a week for that and you would probably be on very little money, but I managed, and I managed to get things that we needed that were running out. Like I bought a new washer and I bought one boy a bike and I bought the other one a record player. I wanted them to have something that they wouldn't have had I not taken the job.

VIRTUALLY A SINGLE PARENT – FURTHER EDUCATION AND MANAGING IN CRISES

And then when I was 30 I went back to the college in Sandy Lane and I took a course on office work because I knew that having worked for a small time in the factory that this was going to be a better option for me because it was only 9 till 5. And I waited until our Adam was 13 and I went for 12-months and then I left and I tried to get a job and I got two! And I chose working at Associated Dairies in Accrington because I knew you that if I did have to come home during the holidays when it was school I would be able to get there and back in the dinner time.

We did typing (at college) and we did anything to do with commercial, and things like that and at the end of the course you had to take the exam and the exam was, you had to write a dissertation or whatever you want to call it and the title was One of the Worst Days of my Life and instinctively it came to mind when my youngest son was very ill. I didn't realise at the time that he was so ill. He was a very active child and when I went up to see him, he wasn't, he was laid in bed. So, what I did was I left him in bed, and I ran up to the school part way, took the other child to school and ran back down and sent for the doctor. I got a neighbour to go for the doctor because nobody had phones then and you couldn't have one on demand, you had to go on a waiting list. And he came down and he told me that he had acute nephritis and it was something to do with the kidneys and the kidneys have stopped working. And he said I'll have to take him in hospital now and he said where's your husband? and I said well he's not here, he's gone on long distance, by then had Brian and he was making better money and the better money made things easier for us. And when he (the doctor) came he took him into the hospital, and he said how long have they been so swollen? and I hadn't realised they were because he was a fat child. But his urine was in a terrible state, it looked like somebody had thrown tea leaves into it and he was in hospital for about 3 weeks and the ward he was on, it was all kidney related and some of the children didn't live.

And so I got a neighbour to pick my other child up so that I could go to Blackburn Infirmary well it was at the infirmary then it was Blackburn Queen's Park it was and stay with him because they expected you to go during the day just to give a bit of help with him and a teacher came in and gave him a few lessons. Because by then he was 3 and a half and he was getting ready for going to school but as it happened, he didn't get to go until he was nearly 5. And so for quite a while that was a bit hairy. Because of course when he came back he was better, but it was getting help when you need it when you're on your own like that, because my parents couldn't help because I'd only got one and he was working and Brian was one of 12 children and his mother had children of her own and they didn't live here, they lived in Oswaldtwistle, so that anything that needed sorting out we had to sort it out between ourselves.

And because of Brian's job, I mean I wasn't on my own, but I had to bring them up on my own and in those days the long-distance work was 60 hours a week and you had to work 60 hours before you went on overtime pay. They eventually came out on strike for it and they were out on strike for about 3 or 4 weeks, I'm going back about two or three years later now. The working week went down then, I think it was to 40 hours and then they went on overtime and again it made things slightly easier again because obviously they were used to doing 60 hours, and doing the 60 hours, it meant that it was getting more money and so that's how we managed until I went to work.

FROM FACTORY TO OFFICE WORK

I went to work at Associated Dairies and when I went with not working for 10-years, I went to (the job centre?) to and she said to me you don't get paid your stamp and I said do I not? and she said no. She said because you've had too long off work. She didn't say I had to do, but she said I'm going to put you on the married woman's stamp. Well that was very little in fact I don't think, I can't remember now just how much it was. I started work at the Dairies and it was £12 a week and out of that there was tax and insurance and I didn't pay any tax for about 6-months because I started in the October and I was there for 22 years.

And in that time of course things all changed, computers were just starting , they had just got the first computer then but I didn't go on computers, I was on sending invoices out and adding everything up, it was done by hand on a machine and I did that for many years. Until eventually I was in charge of a small section of about 6 of us and they used to bring children in from school to see if they would like that sort of work, you know where you can come in and work in different environments we used to take those in July for about a week or two. To see if they would like doing that sort of work. And quite a few did.

They did very well. I mean you had literally to spend time with them because it's like any other job - you might be shown what's the job actually is but there's plenty of other things that are not taught to you that you're expected to do. Like you might use a photocopier but you don't leave it with no paper in, and you show them how to go for the paper and how to ask for the key to go and get it and then you've got to put it into the machine and make sure it's working.

In those days you couldn't work and talk, and neither could you when I was at Barrow Printworks, you weren't allowed to speak to one another it was silence and it was at the Dairies when I went. You weren't allowed to speak and none of the jobs paid you when you were off.

If you're off sick that was it, you didn't get paid because in between going to these two jobs when I had the children at the time at the nursery, the pay was quite poor. But I did eventually go onto piece work, but I never made much because the nursery was continually sending him home saying he wasn't well. I mean I think I was there for a year and I think I actually worked there 9 months and I can honestly say it was the hardest time of my life.

It was the hours -I mean the work and the people they were wonderful, they really were nice people-but they couldn't help me because the nursery wouldn't take him back until it he got over whatever it was he'd gone with. He might be off colour, or he might have a cold or something like that and he seemed to pick everything up that was going. So the environment in the factory wasn't good for me. It wasn't the work it was the things that cropped up that didn't allow me to work as I wanted to do. When I went to the Dairies I had that freedom because they were older then and they were able to come home from school and look after themselves.

When it came to July we used to have students come and they wanted a job where they could just work for 6 weeks before they went about to college or university but it wasn't a success because they didn't want to do any menial tasks which go in with any job . They didn't want to have a turn at washing up or having to make the morning coffee or the afternoon tea, whatever it was they didn't expect to do it.

They didn't expect to do a lot of filing but there are some things that are in the working environment that are expected of you even though it might not be written in, in that you have to go and change a toilet roll, when you leave or put paper in a machine or go and get some stationery and it was two floors down, so because of that they didn't settle very well. We finished with only two people that we took on again and again. Because they realised what needed doing and they accepted it and they did it and one of them was a man - he'd gone into higher education later life and he was about 30 years old. But he did it and he washed up and he said I'm not bothered I want to see what it's like you doing this. But the Dairies after 22 years closed down, and at the same time as it closed down, the Dairies in Oswaldtwistle that closed down and within 3-months that left Accrington with 500 people with no jobs. And it was a lot then.

There are about 4 different offices and I was in the general office and they're all different job sections in that office, but the wages were done in another office. And every Friday- it had been made law that men who had children who was separated from the wife, they were continually being brought up and course because they wouldn't pay maintenance to the wives and then of course the wives were coming on to the town for help. So what they did they started taking it out of their wages and it was done in the wages office against their name and the money that they took out had then to be collected by the wife from the local police station. Well of course it would be quite a bit of money, I mean we'd a big bag of money that we took and they had to take somebody else with them and I was chosen out of the general office to go up to the police station in Spring Gardens and take the money and get him to sign to say he's got the money and then come back. And from there it was distributed to the wives as they came in.

Yeah, I remember the maternity pay. But it wasn't a long time (maternity pay), I think it was 3 months and it might have been by the time I left 6 months. I don't think it was a year then, what eventually came in when you could stay off for a year. Because what's to be remembered is that if you went off for a year in your job they had to get somebody in to do your job, because otherwise if they didn't, they're not going to be needing you if they're managing without you, so what they had to do is they had to- they might be able to do distribute a bit of it, but they wouldn't be able to distribute a lot of it- so what they used to do is have one person at the Dairies who was there if anybody was off. She was like a stray if you will in the office and she'd to learn all the jobs in the office and that's what she did. But I mean I don't think it was ever for more than 6-months, I think it was only for 3. Because the girl I sat next to, she went off to have a baby just as the Dairies was closing.

And I remember they could go back to the job but I'm talking about when I said you couldn't go or get maternity leave or whatever right at the beginning of my working life, you couldn't go back to your job. But these could, the job was open, but it didn't mean to say that you went back into the job that you left. They would find you work and I can remember that, that was a bone of contention at the time, that people weren't going back to what they doing used to and obviously because things were changing in the time they had been off. So it wasn't a good thing when they did come to be pregnant I shouldn't imagine.

I mean when I left, I got some sort of a payment and I think I got it for so many weeks. So it must have been some sort of maternity pay and I was so low paid by the time I paid to the nursery that by the time they paid it me it wasn't for so long , I think that was for 3-months. And because it was so low paid a job that I came out with, I wasn't a lot worse off. So even when I finished work and had the child, when he was born, I had just finished this payment. Because I'd had the three months that I was allowed to have, in a way I got a wage if you will for that time. And it was the only time I'd ever worked and ever got anything like that. Because I'd never been off work sick.

REDUNDANCY

Well I was one of the longest there (Associated Dairies) and I was allowed to leave, I had to go in I think it was for 6 months and then if I got a job within that time, they would still pay me my redundancy pay, which was very little. They didn't pay anything above the odds, they only paid what they had to pay to the government guidelines. Nobody came out with big pay.

And what they did they fetched a person from I think it was Manchester KPG I think it was or something like that. And what they did, they interviewed us all and told us what our assets were and they'd say to you, well you've done this and you've done that, and the job taking the money to the police station, she's struck on that straight away. And I never would have thought it did, but she said yes, she said this would need to go on my CV. She said you need to put this she said because that is a different job to what you are doing she said, and also, she said you've done well because the job I'd finished up doing, I was paying the farmers for the milk that they sent in to be processed.

Years before a law had come out that said you could not have milk that has not been processed to a certain degree. It was the law. You couldn't have farm bottled milk, it was designated as unsafe. So it all had to come in and they had to buy it back off the Dairies. My job was to pay them for the actual milk that came in to be done. And the girl that was on the job, she was pregnant, and she left. And she was working 5 days and I did it in 4. Not only did I do it in for on the days that I did it they added 3 more rows on and where she was doing 55 and I was doing 78.

So anyway, I coped with that and she picked up on that again when she was doing these interviews. And I went round for quite a few interviews , some of them I didn't want and I went-there was two or three that I would have liked - and I went to Fred Millers but it wasn't for the job that I got. It was for something else and I didn't want it because it was so low paid. And they weren't paying enough money to pay my stamp and I thought well I'll hang out first. Because actually by this time I'd started paying a stamp a few years before and I was allowed to go on the dole if I wanted to. I just got through by about 6 weeks but I never drew it because before that time, I think it was about 4 months, I got a job! but by this time nearly everybody had left and I was doing very little in the office. There was no work because it was all being diverted out but I was having to see to the diversion of the milk all over the country.

And then what happened was I got a job at Greens Bakery and it was near the Vine Mill in Oswaldtwistle. And what it was, it was a temporary job because a girl had gone on to leave to have a child and she said to me would you do a temporary job? and I said yes because I wanted to see what I could do out of the environment of the Dairies. And I went up there as a receptionist and as a computer programmer, well data inputter, putting data into the computer and serving customers as they came in. And I was there for 6-months and then in between that, I'd been to Fred Millers for one (job) even though I didn't want to do it, but 3 days later I had a phone call and she asked me would I come in again, because we thought about your interview and we think we have another job for you she said, but it's a new one that we've set up. We think you'd be ok on that. And it was similar to what I'd done at the Dairies. You are dealing with customers direct and it was through the Disablement Services Centre in Preston. And I got that and I was there for 10-years. And in that time, I was in charge of the office.

UNEQUAL PAY

Well I was doing the office upstairs and downstairs, for some reason, he (a colleague) mentioned some money that he was getting. He wasn't making enough money and he was allowed to draw something off the country, he got a top-up to his wage because his wife didn't work, and I think he'd three young children. And he mentioned what his wage was, and I knew then that he was on more money than me. And I went to see the manager and he said no he's not, and I said oh yes he is, I said because ...he's told me how much he's getting. So I went to see the bloke in the wages office and he said right we'll see to it and from that, I did, I got a rise. But it wasn't given to me voluntary I had to ask for it. And even today, I think it's still going on today. I mean look at all these people that's in the BBC, I mean they only found out when it was allowed for them to publish, how much people were getting and they found out then they weren't getting the same wages.

When you went back to work as I said before, they would find you a job, but not necessarily what you were doing and you'd to just accept it. And I mean it was a job at the time and you accepted it because, same as when I was at the Dairies, it was convenient for me. I was near the town, I could do errands in the dinner time and if I needed to go home, I could get home. I could catch a bus if I got out early enough but there was no leeway anyway with any job. It was hard work. You know, I mean yes you were strictly to how many holidays you had in a year, there was no stopping off (sick), you didn't get paid for the first 3 days and there was no actual money given to you from the firm and there wasn't when you left.

INSUFFICIENT MARRIED WOMEN’S NATIONAL INSURANCE CONTRIBUTION

Because I hadn't paid full stamp, I (worked past) retirement age. So what I did, I didn't collect the pension, I asked them to keep it, and I did that for 3 years to allow me to up what bit of pension I did get when I came to leave. And that's what they did. And then in my last year, she wrote to me, she said to me "do you not think you'll be better collecting (your pension)?" Well I was ready for leaving then anyway because I was coming up to 64 then. And what she meant to say was I might never collect it! And I did and they gave me the back pay for the rest of that year and then I went on the pension and it meant I had a small pension for myself until my husband retired the year after.

Nobody told me that (she could continue to register for national insurance while bringing up her children) and when I did retire I asked them if could back pay it and she said no, you've gone on too long and she wouldn't let me. I mean, if I hadn't had done the (extra) 3 years I would have come out with £25 a year.

So it was voluntary , what I did after a few years, I did start paying and as it happened, when I did come to leave the wages lady said to me, I'll check and make sure that you're allowed to go on the dole and she said yes you are, you've got in by 6 weeks but of course I never drew it because I got a job straight away. And after 10 years when I went to the Dairies it was a relief, because I just did not know what to do with the first wage that I got because I'd never been used to having money like that in my hand. I'd managed to putting things in drawers and whatever and buying the stamps to pay for whatever so that the wage was a true bonus to me. I mean after a few months there, I think it was 5 months my wage went down to 10 pounds because of course I started paying tax and insurance which I hadn't had to pay in the first place because I'd to wait until the new tax year. So even though I'd been there, and I'd got into the job I didn't get more money I got less because of the tax you see, the tax situation. I still enjoyed my time there.

FEELING FLUSH IN HER FIRST JOB

I remember my husband waited for me outside the work as I said to him, look at this! Now what are we going to do with all of this? And we were renting a television from Radio Rentals, everybody did then. And I put my name down for a colour television and they said well there's a waiting list, but we'll let you know when one comes in. And I went around, and I must have had to pay that month, it must have been the end of the month, and I'd gone in to pay for this black and white one. And I said to him, I've been waiting, I think it was 4 months or 5 months, something like that, I said to him is there any chance of getting a colour one? He said well there is, but you know your rental will go up. I said oh yes I know! because I just seemed so flush with this money and he came back and he said yes. There is one and we'll put you down. We'll collect the other and we'll get you one and that was my first thing.

POST RETIREMENT

When my husband retired, he had an accident. And so from that day he was never as he was when he was working. The last 10 years I've been a carer and they found out he had cancer, he had a broken back and he had multiple other things as well. So really for the last 10 years it was really like a lockdown. Because I haven't been able to get out and that we had carers in, and I didn't really want them in, but he did have them in to allow me to go out with my friends for an afternoon. He had to give up driving and he'd never wanted me to drive, he said I'll take you here there and everywhere, and that's my one big regret that I didn't stand up to him about it. Because now of course I don't drive.

So what I did I started doing charity work and I did it for Age UK and I was there for 2 years. Then I did it for various things and then when my husband died that's nearly 2 years ago, I found with not having anything to do, because obviously it was 24/7, caring for him, he wasn't bedridden but he was near enough bedridden and I went down and I asked a charity shop did they want any help. And I like ironing, it's my favourite job and I said do you want me to help? And I can see the ironing board and I can come and do it for you and she started me, and I've been there ever since and I shall be going this afternoon!

I dress the windows and I do the ironing and I set things out in the shop. I'm going down today with a bundle of new coats that's been given to me and I shall put them up on a rack against the wall and see if anything's sold out of the window. And if it has, I'll redress it I'll keep topping it up and I enjoy it. It's for Foals and Horses in the Arndale and of course like everything else it's had a big blow with this Covid, and they still have to feed the animals. When I went back about six or seven weeks ago, they had this massive backlog of donations and so up until last week they had to get rid of all those and they just started this week with the new stock for winter. So that's what I'm doing now, getting winter stock out and putting that out.

ANY REGRETS?

I would not say I would do a different path what it was circumstances that held me back. It's no good bothering about it because I mean the two children, I mean they're married now and I've great-grandchildren, but it was no good bothering there was nobody to have them, because I mean my sister was dead, my father was dead, both his parents were dead ... the only thing I do regret is not driving because if it had have been, I've just had 5 months lockdown and then they thought I had a cancer on my leg and I had to go and have a biopsy on that. And I'd only been out once, and they rang me up and told me I'd have to stop in another two weeks.

So I did 6 months and 4 months of that I didn't go beyond the garden wall. But I used to speak to neighbours from across the road and I have to say this, my neighbours are good, and they've been good with me and they still are good with me.

Having said that, it's the people around you, when I was in on my own with Brian, the isolation was there then because nobody came because they didn't want to upset him, and he wasn't much company. We had a stair lift and I had to get him downstairs and do everything for him. He was a lot worse than what people saw and so of course my time was taken up by that both day and night, and of course when he died it was nothing, you know.

I mean it takes some adjustment because I mean you're not making meals for 2 or 3, you're making meals for yourself and there's no washing to do and there's no cleaning up. And for some people that might be great, but on the other hand there's nothing to do in that time and I'm not that sort of person. I'd rather be busy. So what I do is, I going to do this work at the charity shop and on Sundays I go up to my son's cornmill and I help there and I bag seeds up and things like that to go on the shelf out of these sacks. I do that every Sunday. I'm not going this week because they're going away.

I mean, I used to have the children, 4 of the great grandchildren, every month for dinner you know, and I'll look after them for a few hours while they did errands and things like that. Well of course they couldn't come (during lockdown) and I've just had them this last week for the first time and by the end of that day lockdown was on again where they couldn't come to the house. And you miss that you know, because the interaction with them, being in the shop, I'm not actually in the shop, I'm at the back ironing you know, but people shout and they wave to you and neighbours come in and they'll say are you ok ? I can see them but I'm not actually interacting with them. I've to go with a mask on and I have the gel on and I have the gloves on. You've got to do because you've got to think about other people. It's lucky in a way that it's in the Arndale because we have martials outside and they do this walking up and down so if we have any bother with people not coming in with masks they're watching for that you know, and they've told us we have to see to that. I mean it's not us that will get it but they will and obviously we don't want to close things down.